Andy Didorosi and Mutiny Motors

Okay, so you were saying this about the K track,

like not not being able to be swiped.

Lisa Robbin Young: Yeah, I think the idea of creating an open

source vehicle, an open source anything. I'm I'm a big open

source fan. I have been for most of my life. It's it's only been

recently that I've moved over to the dark side with iDevices, and

that's because they just have bigger hard drives. Because I

needed more hard drive space, but I'm a big fan of open source

because it allows for collaboration. It allows for new

ideas to come into the creation and and improve upon it. Right,

something that you don't get from a closed source

environment, and so to hear Andy say we're making a kit truck

that you can build at home, and we're going to have the the

plans are already out there. You can you know start doing this

stuff yourself allows for a lot more ingenuity, a lot more

creativity, and a lot more collaboration. And I think,

especially with the world burning down, we're going to see

a lot more of that happening, where people are coming together

in community to to roll out new ideas and new ventures and new

projects and things that people really need at a price point

that people can afford, because you know the yeah the economics

the economics of living in America right now well anywhere

in the world but I live in America so let's talk about that

the economics of living in America right now are very

challenging even if you're quote unquote middle income right

in the world of business there are a lot of

choices. There are a lot of lies. There are a lot of

shortcuts. There are a lot of people taking those shortcuts

and telling those lies. And then there are the people who choose

to do it right. At a time when so often profit is king, those

people are increasingly rare. But when those people are in

charge, good things happen. Fortunately, some of those

people are business owners. Some of those people are bosses, and

we are here to showcase the best ones. I'm your host Leela Sinha

with co-host Lisa Robin Young. Let's get started. So let's get

started. My name is Leela Sinha. This is Leela Robin Young, my

co-host, and this is Power Pivot season three episode five, and

we're going to talk about Andy Didarosi and his company Mutiny

Motors, and maybe some of his other projects, and kind of

where he's gone, and and the kinds of things he's been able

to do, because he's got a fairly impressive list of of stuff that

he does, and and how he's built with community to make all of

these projects happen. I think we are in a moment historically

where community is absolutely of vital importance, and you can

really see that it's not just some hippy dippy la la pie in

the sky, which that's me. Like, don't get me wrong, but it's not

just that. It's also like commerce and companies and

things that could potentially make money. And I think that's

that's an important perspective to bring to the table,

especially when we're talking about something like open

source. Which I don't know if it predates software, but my first

exposure to open source was open source software, which is the

kind of thing that just inspires forking, right? Like you just

fork off. So to fork off of a project is to take what's there

and then take it off in another direction.

Lisa Robbin Young: We are actively looking for ways to

secure our nest eggs, save some green, give ourselves some more

breathing room financially that doesn't end up putting us deeper

in debt. And open source is a great way to approach that

because then anybody who's got a great idea can go, well, you

know, I I took what you had and I did this to it to make it even

better or more affordable or whatever. So yeah, I'm I'm

really down with the whole idea of what he's trying to create

and and how he set it up so that it it prevents corporate

America, the big titans of industry, from obtaining his

plans and and locking everybody else out and blocking him. It's

like no, this is all open source. Anything related to it

is open source. If you try to iterate on it. It's open source.

You can't, you you can't claim it as your own. It's Creative

Commons essentially for product and anything you any derivative

work you create from it. We can derive from you too.

Right. This is the people's truck.

Lisa Robbin Young: Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And as as Lisa was saying, as you were

saying that we're we're watching this project where Andy is is

encouraging people to fork his project. He's he's making sure

that people have access to the plans. He's like, yes, I'll sell

a kit, sure, if you want that, but also I will just sell the.

Plans. If you have like a pipe bender and you want to go to

town and build your own roll cage, have at

Lisa Robbin Young: it. Yeah, yeah, and and the thing that

that really excites me about this, and and I mean I think I

think we need to you know full disclosure, this project is not

profitable yet. He's using money from his racing to help you know

fund the project, he's got a lot of volunteer support on this.

He's five years in. They still don't have the vehicle complete,

and still, there's a lot of enthusiasm for this. There are a

lot of people who want to see him win. There are a lot of

people who are you know support showing up to support him and

like literally coming out and like let's tear off this roof

and put a new roof on for you. He has a whole

YouTube video about that if you want to look it up.

Yeah,

Lisa Robbin Young: right, right. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a

testament to how when you've got a vision that people can get

behind, you don't have to be. I'm saying this. Andy's got a

great personality to to to woo people in. He really does. Sure.

But even if he didn't, the idea, right? The vision behind this is

what I want to do, is attractive enough to a large enough

audience that people are like, when can I get in? When is this

coming out? Like he just did a video of like the top 10

questions that you know he's been getting, and they're like

when and what kind of features, and so these are buyer

questions. These are people who are like, I want this, let's

make it happen, and that's always a good sign when you're a

business owner that you've got a crowd of hungry people who want

to get in on what it is that you're offering, he's just got

to get that timeline shortened up so that he can actually, you

know, bring it to market.

Yeah, and his, I think it's on Discord. His

Discord community is a paid community. Like people are just

putting five bucks in the pot every month to to be connected,

to be part of the conversation. He's got skilled, highly skilled

people who are part of his volunteer crew. He's got

designers. He's got engineers. He's got so so. It's not just

like oh yeah, I'm gonna you know go throw some paint on a car in

my spare time. Like it's not that. It's like people who

actually know what they're doing and can actually design it. Now,

the the car is not. I think he may have originally started with

a different vision. I don't know, but the current version of

the project is that it's going to be not necessarily street

legal, depending on which city you're in. Right. It's it's

going to be his target market is really people who have acreage

and need a thing to tool around their acreage, and I imagine

that his competition for this there's not really competition,

but I imagine that the the things that are most like it are

like the four wheeled kind of hopped up off road golf carts. I

don't know what they're called, but those those four wheeled

vehicles that that people sometimes use in in that role,

it used to be three wheelers, and they used to not have roofs,

but now they have roofs and cargo spaces, and you know

they've they've gotten improved over the years. And I and then

he's like, there will be two different keys, and if I sell it

to you in a state where it could be street legal, then I'll give

you the key that takes it up to 60 miles an hour, and if I sell

it to you in a state that doesn't allow these to be street

legal, then I'll give you the key that only takes it up to

whatever the ceiling is. So I think that he's really

pragmatic, which I really appreciate, and I think that

helps to keep that energy and that momentum and that interest,

moving because if he said, "Oh no, we're going to do this

impossible thing, and it really was like legally impossible,

people would have jumped ship by now. But every time there's an

obstacle, he gets on YouTube, he gets on a short video, he talks

about what the obstacle is, what he's doing about it, how he's

working through it, and I think that kind of communication is

really critical to this community-based development

process.

Lisa Robbin Young: Yeah, I think one of the one of the big

selling points of of watching Andy's project come to life is

the level of transparency and depth of communication. He's

like, I will answer all the questions in the comments. If

you if you know somebody who I'd be interested to connect with

them, like he's very open. It's open source communication. It's

open source community. It's not just an open source truck,

right? Like this is an ethos that permeates everything that

he's about, and he's not afraid to say, you know, we've had a

lot of problems with break-ins, we've had a lot of problems with

roof damage, and we've had a lot of problems, you know, that have

really slowed this project down, and we are still moving forward,

and we're trying to you know we're trying to find a solution

for this, and then we find a solution, and then now this new

thing comes up, and we're trying to find a solution for that, and

we find a solution, right? Or somebody comes out of the

community and says, "Hey, I can help. You know, I can give you

three days of labor or whatever, and and and while while I'm

saying you know the. This isn't a profitable business yet. I

also think, I mean, but I also think that it's important to

talk about what is working here, right? Like, this is a different

way of doing business that isn't necessarily about what the

bottom line says at the end of the day, at least not right now,

right? Right. This is about the the the people, and it and the

whole project has always been about the people. And his last

project with the the free bus rides was about the people and

about the community, right? Like so, he's got the net

project for folks, so they know what it is.

Lisa Robbin Young: Sure. So before he decided he was going

to launch this car company. He launched a program in the

Detroit area that gave free bus rides, and I think it was to

students that were move that were you know bussing across

town or whatever. And so he was giving. He had one bus, and he

was like, "If you get on the bus, we'll take you to the

destination, and you don't have to pay, and anybody can ride,

and you know all that. And that one bus became several busses

and several routes across the Detroit area that are totally

free. And I I can't remember what is paying for it right now

off the top of my head. I can't remember what is paying for it,

but it's grown because everybody wants to support it and be a

part of it and and see it do good, right? And that's the same

thing that we're witnessing with his his car company, and you

know in my mind I'm going, and that is a business model, right?

Right now it's not a profitable, sustainable business model for

the car company, but it's working for the bus company,

right? It is. It is doing what it need. It is creating enough

revenue to sustain itself and keep itself going. It is doing

what it needs to do. So that is a viable business model. It'll

be interesting to see how that shakes out for the car company

because we are so used to, as as business owners in the

entrepreneurial world, we are so used to seeing. Well, it's got

to make a profit, and it's got to kick back this much money to

investors, and it's got to do right like that way that

business is quote unquote supposed to look and feel. We

don't have that experience with Andy's car company. No, because

he

doesn't have that kind of investing.

Lisa Robbin Young: Exactly, exactly. His investors are the

people who give a damn, right? The people who are like here for

the project. This is like the world's longest Kickstarter, and

people are still like, "I want this. I really, really want

this. What can I do to to speed this along? And he's got people

all over the country, right? This isn't just Detroit thing. I

I believe it. I believe it. Yeah. I mean, this is not just a

this is not just a hey, it's it's made in Detroit, and I

mean, I'm all for the Detroit hustle. You know, my my home

state. I'm I'm here for it, and he's created something that is

so attractive and so appealing that people are like, whatever

we need to do, we're we're in. We are 100% in, and I think

right. You

want us to bring our knee pads and rip roofing

off the roof? We'll we'll come. It turned out for that project,

spoiler, that that he had to hire help. He had to get

professionals in because it was just going too slowly. But the

fact that so many people were willing to show up, and some of

them drove from not far, not close, to be part of it, right,

right, and I think I think the Kickstarter comparison is a

really interesting one because so often we sign up for

Kickstarter, we back Kickstarter project that has a physical

product at the end of it, and we think we're going to get the

product, and then it just disappears, and it it's not

like, or it becomes much less than what it was supposed to be,

or major features are changed, and there's no, you know, there

might be a little bit of communication, but there's not a

lot of communication about

Lisa Robbin Young: it, right? And part of that is the function

of of a crowd funding site in particular, right? They're like

you have X number of days, and some sites let you pick the

number of days, and some sites don't, and some sites say you

know you've got to have it fully funded, and some sites don't,

and so you as the business owner have to think in your mind and

plan out ahead. Well, I should be able to deliver this by this

day, and you know we are all looking at best case scenarios

when we make those projections. Nobody's going. And if the world

burns down and supply chains shut down, then I can have this

to you in three years. Like, and if this is three years,

Lisa Robbin Young: Exactly. I mean, exactly. Nobody.

There were epidemiologists. We're like,

it's coming someday. But most of us did not put a pandemic. Most

of us who don't have

Lisa Robbin Young: that area of expertise were not looking for

that, and that's the thing. Like when you are making these kinds

of projections, you're you're you're betting on the future,

and no one knows the future. All it is ever is a guess. Sometimes

an educated guess, but it's still a guess. And so you have

these. Have funding sites that are like, if you went on and

said this will be delivered in three years, nobody would fund

your project,

right? So

Lisa Robbin Young: you're like, it'll be done by you know nine

months from now or 10 months from now or whatever. And 10

months comes and you're like, yeah, we're we're not there yet,

right? And so for him to basically be able to crowdsource

off of one of those third party platforms and crowdsource in his

own space, again, I think is a testament to the kind of draw

that he can get from social media to his platform, and and

and again, it's a it's a big vote for I, I'm I'm not a fan of

third-party, I'm not again open source right open source,

third-party platforms serve a purpose, but there's often so

many restrictions that it can make it very difficult for you

to create something that's profitable and sustainable,

because you're beholden to whatever their timelines are,

whatever their guidelines are, and I know they exist for a

reason. I know they exist to protect your backers. I get it,

and sometimes because you can't predict, it just makes it really

tense. One of the reasons why I've never done a crowdfunding

project because I'm like, I, I do not own a crystal ball. I

cannot tell you for sure if this is going to happen or when or

how. Get you a

crystal ball, but I can't guarantee its accuracy.

Lisa Robbin Young: Right, exactly. I mean, like I can hold

it. I, I can, I can pretend better, but like to really know,

no, there are too there are too many moving parts and too many

variables. And when you're talking about a a vehicle, you

can that's exponential, right? Because you've got you've

got all kinds of regulatory issues to clear, and

you've got design issues to clear. And here he is tearing

down a Tesla Model Three to get the get the the engine out of

it, so the motor out of it, so he can he can put it in this

thing, and then he's like, oh, okay. So if this his this is

other project his his hero project or what do they call it?

Hero project. Yeah, he's been doing racing

Lisa Robbin Young: track, right? Yeah, he's doing a

racing track, and he's like, "Oh, if if this goes

that fast, we will break the frame. So now we have to rebuild

the entire frame. But the thing is, he takes us along for all of

it. Unlike so many Kickstarter projects, not all of them, but a

lot of them, he he just brings us along. He's like, "So we

thought we were gonna just throw this in here, but no, because my

engineers tell me that I will destroy the truck by starting it

if I if I don't build rebuild the entire frame to take, and

and then he goes into the physics, right? Like his

background is in racing. He understands the physics, and he

will explain it in a way that he thinks his audience will mostly

be able to get it, and I think people really appreciate that

aspect of the project too. That he's not just oh, technical blah

blah blah. He's like, okay, so this is what it looks like.

Here's a picture. This is what would happen if we put this

motor in this car without reinforcing it. So we're gonna

reinforce it, but it's gonna take us some time, right? And he

says that a lot. So we're gonna do this, but it's gonna take

some time, and and because of that, I think his people

continue to have trust for the most part. I mean, every time he

posts a video, of course, there are people like, oh yeah, sure,

this is never gonna work. But like, he also is really

resilient. He's like, it might not work, but I'm gonna try.

Lisa Robbin Young: Yeah. Well, and that's one of the things

that I I will say about Andy. Like he has had multiple

projects over the years. He he went in with I think a couple of

partners and and got a building, and they were like, we're gonna

create essentially a co working space, but like a maker co

working space. Right. And they had that for several years, and

then they close that and they move down to something else and

and for him, like he's got an experimenter's mindset, right?

I'm gonna try this because I think it can work. Let's find

out if it can work. Now, luckily, he also has the

resources to be able to do that. Not everybody could go five

years on a project and not see it produce revenue, he has his

racing as a sugar daddy, basically, you know, and that's

great, right? Like, it. I think I think it's very important for,

especially people in the startup world, to recognize that it's

not always a winner right out of the bat, and it is smart to have

backup funding so that you're not beholden to an investor

who's got a timeline and wants to see an ROI in the next 60

days and is looking for a

unicorn, right? Investors aren't just looking

for a reasonable return; they're looking for the next unicorn,

and they get really impatient if they're not finding

Lisa Robbin Young: it. Right, right, and and unicorn almost

always means very low overhead, super high profitability, which

means no people,

right?

Lisa Robbin Young: You know, and so this is very much the

opposite. This is very much a people-powered organization.

It's a very much a people-powered mindset, a

community-powered mindset. Not just people, community.

Everybody coming together to connect. To your to your point

earlier about there are all. People in the comments who say

this is never going to happen, you know, haters gonna hate,

right? Like, there's always somebody, and every time you

make a decision, and this is this is old, this is old like

email marketing, right? Like back in the olden days of the

internet, when you know my early dinosaur days, they said, you

know, when you've got an opt-in form, you don't want to have

more than the name and the email address because every extra

field you see it's friction and you see you know a 10 or a 50%

decline in your opt-ins, right? Well, same thing here. Every

time you're going to make a change, every time you've got an

announcement of a setback, you're going to see some people

walk away from it because they're like, "I'm done waiting,

or "It's just one more hassle. It's never going to work, right?

Like those are not the people that you're here for, anyways.

Like get over that, get over that right away. You're here for

the people who are invested and rabid for and hungry for that

thing you said you wanted. Those are the people you need to be

talking to. Those are the people you need to be listening to,

right? Those other people-they may come out of the woodwork

periodically and give you grief, but they're not your people.

They're really not.

Yeah, yeah. There's no reason to. There's no reason

to give them a time, time and intent. Like, no, just don't

bother.

Lisa Robbin Young: That's right.

So when when we think when when I think about

what Andy is doing, what I think Andy is doing is creating

businesses around community, and this one happens to be an open

source truck. But in order to be building a business around

community, we have to be building a business around

values. And I know my longtime listeners will be like, "There

you go again, talking about values, but but first of all,

yes, of course, I'm a minister. That's one of the things I talk

about, and and also I'm an ethics consultant. That's one of

the things I talk about, but also that's how you pull a

community together. Like you can have a common project, but a

common project by itself with no common values, the the people

won't stick. What you get is you get a common value, the common

values that are like we are committed to an open source

truck, right? The minute you're committed to an open source

project, you're bringing values to the project. It doesn't have

to be more than that, but in this case, it is. Every time he

has the opportunity to be a jerk, he's not, and that

matters.

Lisa Robbin Young: Yeah. Well, and I think for those people who

are rolling their eyes at the idea of values, even that is a

value, right? Like you cannot be a human being on planet Earth

and not have something that you value. You cannot build a

business on planet Earth that doesn't have something that

you're valuing. Now, that could just be I value the almighty

dollar and the the bottom line. Which I mean, I'm sorry for you.

That that's kind of sad, but if you are a person, you have

values, and especially if you are a solo or a micro business

owner, or you're an early stage startup entrepreneur and you

don't have a huge team. Your values guide the direction of

whatever it is that you're trying to create. Like the

personal and the professional are intertwined. You can't

pretend that they're not. So if you're rolling your eyes at the

idea of business values, sorry, that your your that's not a true

thing,

Lisa Robbin Young: right? Your your values are already on

display, right? Like that-that-that tells me very

clearly what you value and what you don't. So don't pretend that

values aren't important. They are. When I'm working with

clients, that's one of the very first places we look. I'm always

like, "Who are you? What really matters to you? You know, I

always start with you. Sorry, Simon. I don't start with why. I

start with you. Who are you? What are you about? And then why

does this matter? Who are you here for? What are you offering?

How are you delivering it? Like that's how I build business

models with people. You have to start with values and beliefs

and and the things that you hold dear because everything else

comes out of that.

And and when you're not adhering to your values in

how you treat this is where I start. If when you're not

adhering to your values and how you treat yourself, everything's

going to go to hell. And the reason everything's going to go

to hell is because eventually you will resent that.

Lisa Robbin Young: Yep.

And as soon as you start to resent that, you'll

start to carve out exceptions to the rules for yourself. And when

you start to carve out exceptions to the rules for

yourself, if you have other people, they're going to resent

you having exceptions. And if you have any little tiny hole

where something could get through that's not quite the

right thing to do, at some point it's going to slip through that

hole. So we want to keep you satisfied and happy, yes, but

also in alignment, because when you're in alignment with your

own values and your company's choices are in alignment with

your values, then there's no room for things to go well.

There's very little room for things to go off track.

Everything can always go off track, but. Yeah, and I think a

lot of people hear the word alignment and they're like, "Oh,

you're getting woo woo. Like spinal alignment, people like

we're just talking about things lining up in, you know, a

congruent, harmonious way, right? Where things have to come

together and match up. Do your values match up? Are you walking

your talk, right? Like that's that's what alignment is here.

This is not some metaphysical thing. It is like truly, how how

are you saying? Are

Lisa Robbin Young: you saying one thing and doing another, or

are you showing up exactly the way you said you wanted to be

showing up and and believe in showing up, right? Like that

that congruency, it matters.

Yeah, yeah, and and it it like you said, it's it

could be super simple. It could be if you're running a company

whose entire job is to reduce fossil fuel use, you better have

a really good reason for driving a big truck. There might be a

good you might be driving an electric truck, but there might

be a really good reason for you to be driving a big truck. Maybe

you're hauling around like the the clean ocean stuff. The I

can't remember what the project is called. There's a project

that's cleaning up the oceans, and they have like big

equipment. You might need a big diesel truck to haul around the

big equipment to to like fish plastic out of the ocean, you

can't really get around that, right? Or the the ships might

need to run on diesel because that's what has the power to do

the thing. So it's not it's often complex. It's not

necessarily perfectly straightforward. And and oh, I

saw you did this one thing, and now you're canceled. Don't get

me started on canceling. We'll be here all day. There's such

strong feelings about not doing that in most cases, but making

sure that that there's a that that all of the factors have

been weighed and that you're coming out in in an aligned way

so that your stuff that you're doing and the other stuff that

you're doing makes sense together. Yeah, so that you're

not, you know, taking a depressant and a stimulant at

the same time, and then wondering why you feel weird.

You're gonna feel weird,

Lisa Robbin Young: right? I think I think you you you

highlighted something like when we have something that's

complex, we have nuance, and so often in the business world, we

are not. We're either not allowed to, or we're not

thinking about, or we're not considering the nature of

nuance, right? The same move that can save one company can

destroy another, right? Well, they did it. Well, yeah, but

just because they did it doesn't mean it's going to work for you,

and that can be mindset, that can be hiring practices. That

can be you know supply chains. That that could be any number of

things. You have to look at the bigger picture and recognize

well how do these things fit for what we are trying to do, and if

it doesn't make sense, don't just do it because you heard

somebody else say that or that's that's the in thing to do or

whatever, like you really have to be mindful of. Well, this is

how we're wired. This is what our organization is about. This

is what our organization values. How about that? And then, how

are our options? How are our options to execute on whatever

it is that's in front of us? How do they come into play, and how

do they work? And sometimes that means we're gonna make a less

than stellar choice in this moment because it's the right

move for us to make right now to get us to the next place. You

know, we talk a lot about shopping at big box stores and

and big online real real retail outlets, and it's like sometimes

it's the only choice you have because of where you live or

whatever. That doesn't make you an evil person. It makes you

beholden to the system because that's what's in front of you.

And when you have the resources to choose differently, choose

differently. Right. Right. Like accept where you are and what

you have and what you can do. Do what you can as you are able.

And when you are able to do more, do more. Do different. Do

better.

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it's efficiency, and

sometimes it's timing, and sometimes it's just I don't know

where else to buy this cable except online. Now I have my

choice of online retailers, but this online retailer is going to

take three weeks to get it to me, and I need it for something

that's happening next week. So now I know to plan ahead. I

guess if I want to buy from the other place, but but sometimes

all the pieces just don't come together, and I think we have to

make room for humanity in this values alignment. I think a lot

of people are like, oh, if I have a values aligned company,

then like I can't breathe without you know setting up 16

different you know pins and making sure I knock them all

over in order, and it's just not. That's not pragmatic. That

you have to have room for pragmatism in a values aligned

company, but we can't listen to the story that says that if you

are at all pragmatic, then you can't include your values.

Lisa Robbin Young: Right. Right, I, I, I, I say this often.

Ethics are a spectrum, right? There, there is no 100% fully

ethical organization on planet Earth. Like it's just not a

thing. There's no ethical

breathing on Earth at this point,

Lisa Robbin Young: right? Exactly. Unless you plant a tree

every time you inhale, there's just not like that's not a

thing. So, what we want to do then is like minimize the harm

that we're causing, maximize the the the benefit that we're

creating, right? Like that's that's the goal. It's not to be

perfect in it, you know, Mary Poppins, practically perfect in

every way. It's like it's that's not possible, but we can

continue to strive to do better. Continue to strive to improve.

Continue to strive to be more inclusive and be more you know

wide focus instead of so very narrow and like very limited

parochial. This is this is it's all about me, right? Like we

can't we can't thrive that way.

Yeah, it's very easy for me, just my

personality, my intensiveness, my other characteristics. It's

very easy for me to get. So I'm like, well, if I can't do it

perfectly, then I why bother, right? And and it shows up every

everywhere in my life. I'm like, well, if I can't clean the sink

properly, perfectly, then why bother? Oh, if I can't, you know

learn to do web pages perfectly? Then why bother? But also, like,

I need a web page, and I can't afford to pay someone else to do

it perfectly, and they won't do it perfectly either. And I'll be

just like fretful and dissatisfied all the time,

unless and until I make space for we're going to do the best

we can. It's the kind of it's harm reduction, but it's harm

reduction, kind of on a life-wide scale, where it's

like, okay, well, this time I have to buy single-use plastic.

That time I can, you know, buy something that's more reusable

plastic, or you know, more durable plastic, or steel, or

glass, or you know, whatever it is that I need for the space. It

took me forever to figure out what kind of soap vessel I could

use near bathtubs and sinks and stuff like that because you

know, like porcelain breaks. That's the the classic, you

know, environmentally correct. But it breaks, and so finally I

discovered that there were some steel ones. Now, does steel use

a lot of water to produce sure, but it also lasts basically

forever. So I don't feel that bad about having you know like a

steel squirty water bottle, a soap bottle. And yes, it has

plastic at the top where the squirting part is because that

doesn't work very well in metal. But you know it's it's that kind

of like, is it perfect? Perfect? No. Can I imagine that there

might be a better solution in the world? Yes. Is this the best

solution for me right now that meets me where I am? Yes. And I

think we see that bring it back to Mutiny Motors. I think we see

that in Andy's project because every time he runs into an

obstacle, he's not like, oh well, I guess I'm never going to

do that again, right? So part way he bought, we didn't really

tell the history of the project. He bought an old abandoned car

factory in Detroit,

Lisa Robbin Young: yeah,

and then he set about kind of starting his

project in it and repairing it at the same time, and at some

point that stopped working entirely, and so he had to stop

and redo the roof because he was just losing too much to the

leaky roof. But in the in in the meantime, he he every so often

he'll see something online and he'll be like, oh, I should buy

that. But like you know, this is not Facebook Marketplace. Like I

go on Facebook Marketplace, and I'm like, oh, look at that coat

or those shoes or that spinning wheel. That that looks like

something I should have in my house. I should definitely buy.

I'm a fiber artist, among other things. So spinning wheel is not

impossible. I I bought my loom off of Facebook Marketplace, but

but he'll go online and he'll be like, oh look, they're selling a

lot of of factory robots because they changed their tooling. I

would like those factory robots. So he did this. He actually

bought a truckload of factory robots that had to be. They were

so heavy they had to be transported by rail, and then

like just the last mile came to his factory on you know a heavy

duty tractor trailer, and then he had to figure out how to get

them out of the trailer because he lost the key, and like all of

these adventures, right? But he's but he's constantly solving

the problem. He's constantly advancing the process, and he's

constantly making room for his own humanity and everyone

else's. Which I think, for me anyway, is part of the feel-good

experience of following his projects. I've been following

him for I don't know months, a year, and and part of the appeal

is that I'm watching somebody do this like moonshot type project,

and he's not Google, right? Google does moonshot projects

all the time. They eat them for breakfast, but they also have

money. And people and resources and all this stuff. I'm watching

him do these this moonshot project, which is not his first.

And I'm watching him do it. Be like, oh, I guess I should buy a

factory. Oh, I guess I should buy some factory robots. We're

not going to use them yet, but we'll use them eventually. And

then in the middle of all this, he's like, I should buy. So

there was a a place nearby him that was selling an entire

screen printing setup for T-shirts and like bags and

whatever, and he was like that would be a great additional

thing for us to have because then we can just make merch for

the project, however and whenever we want without dealing

with anybody's restrictions on it. This is a perfectly good

rig. It's just this company is is basically not going to be

doing it this way anymore. And I like doing things the

old-fashioned way. This is old-fashioned, like it's

automated, but it's it's the old style screen printing. It's not

some weird computerized thing. And so he has this whole screen

printing rig on the second floor of the factory, and he's like,

you know, I I think I'm probably gonna need to get someone to run

this because I thought I could do it myself, but I can't. And

he just says that. He just says it. Do you know how? I mean, you

know, but like, for the listeners, like, do you know how

much shame is put on small business owners who think they

can do something and then have to walk it back, and he's like,

"No, that's fine. I thought I could, can't. Gonna get someone

in here. Maybe I'll get a volunteer. Maybe eventually I'll

wait until I can hire someone. Maybe a combination of both. I

don't know, but like this is more than I can do if I want to

keep the original project moving forward, and I really need to do

that. So I'm gonna prioritize that, and then he just moves on.

Like I don't know what the inside of his head is like, but

it certainly doesn't feel like he spends a lot of time, you

know, recriminating.

Lisa Robbin Young: No, I think I think my experience of

everything that I've seen from Andy is that he's an

experimenter first and an entrepreneur second, right?

Like, and a business owner like

fourth,

Lisa Robbin Young: right, right, right, exactly. It's like I I

want to make this a going concern, so there's an

entrepreneurial mindset. But before any of that, he's like,

"What can we do? What's possible? Let's see. I have an

idea. Here's a hypothesis. Let's test it, right? Right. And

sometimes it turns out great, and sometimes it doesn't. I know

that his his incubator space didn't last very long, just a

few years, and it's like, well, maybe it didn't take off. Maybe

the partners, like some something, made him decide that

that was not the thing, and he moved on. And especially when

also

great inspiration for our ADHD listeners who are

not always willing to like you don't have to stick with

something. Just move on.

Lisa Robbin Young: Right, right, right. If if it's if it's not

serving you, if it's not doing what you wanted to do, if you're

not feeling it anymore, I mean, I would hope that you would

close it out with some level of respect to the people who were

there at the time. But you can let it go. You can move on to

the thing that really is calling your heart. And and I really

appreciate how he doesn't have a problem with being very clear

about you know that's just not that's just not the way it's

gonna it's not gonna work that way. We if we're gonna keep

doing it, we gotta find a different way, right? And he

doesn't give up necessarily, but he does recognize when it's

beyond his scope, and then he's like, "Well, if we're gonna keep

doing it, it won't be me. It'll be somebody else or something

else. And I think that's another thing that we as entrepreneurs

need to recognize is that just because we can doesn't mean we

should, and if you're trying to do all of the things, that means

you're going to be left holding all of the things, and that

makes it really hard for you to see the bigger landscape because

you're too busy holding all the things. So there will come a

point where you have to take some of those hats off, and you

you have to trust other people with your vision. That doesn't

mean you just trust anybody, but I mean, you do have to open up.

You have to release the Vulcan death grip of control and let

some other people, you know, participate and share their

gifts. And that's the cool thing about what he's done with this

whole open source concept is he's invited those people in

right from the jump.

Right. Yeah. He's like, you want to be part of the

design? You have ideas? Come join me. If you have these

skills, come join me over here. If you have those skills, come

join me over there. Like the Discord is all these different

channels for all these different aspects of of production, and

you know sometimes he's more communicative there than other

times, which I think is also really common with with founders

who are really passionate about their projects, like they get

into the project and they don't always tend the community. It I

think it's really wise to bring on somebody, and I don't know if

he's done this or not, to bring on somebody or a couple of

somebody's whose job it is to tend the community, and to keep

you plugged in and keep you attending to it. That's one of

the functions that I'm doing on a. I'm working on a software

project right now, and that's one of the things I do. Is I

kind of watch the community and watch the founder interact with

the community, and every so often I'm like, "Go say this, go

do that. Look for an

Lisa Robbin Young: update. They need to see your face. Yeah.

Right. Right. You've been quiet for too long.

I know you're into this or distracted by that, but like, go

say something, fluff the community, fluff. And and what

he often does is, if he's been quiet for a while, he'll come

back with a big update, a video, like a bunch of conversation,

and that gets people going again because he never quite like his

instinct for when it's getting a little too low and he needs to

do this is is pretty good.

Lisa Robbin Young: One, he never stops filming, right? Like

there's always always filming, right? And so you even when it's

been a while since you've heard from him, you know that there's

a big update coming with a whole lot of B-roll and a whole lot

of. He's like, "Cue the rain montage, and I'm like, it's six

days of rain, and all of these different camera angles. So I

mean, he was still documenting the journey, even though he

hadn't checked in, and he's not afraid to show you what you

missed in that intervening time. That's been really helpful for

me as I am, you know, clocking all the footage that I've been

filming for the reality show that I'm trying to build, it's

like yeah, don't just keep filming. Never stop filming. Let

the camera roll because you never know when that little

piece of that one little clip is going to be the thing that like

sets the tone for whatever you're working on. And he he

does a really good job of making sure that you see the real real,

right, right, and that, and that you know you

understand that it's complicated and it's messy, and sometimes

the roof falls in, and sometimes you got to tarp stuff over, and

sometimes there's so much rain that you just have to hold your

breath and cross your fingers and hope the electronics didn't

get fried, which they didn't. He got lucky, right? And and and

then him, you know, periodically he mentions his other funding

sources, and he brings people. He's like, "I'm going racing.

Here's where you can watch about my racing this weekend, right?

And so that, and like he brings you along on the drive to get to

the race, and when the car breaks down, he brings you along

on that too. And it's like, it's it's it is a little bit like a

reality TV show in that there's just everything is there, and he

doesn't know what he's going to get, but he's also not afraid of

getting something he wasn't expecting.

Lisa Robbin Young: Right, right, and it and it never comes across

as performative reality, right? Like he's not just showing the

highlight reel or just showing the tragedy. He's like, this is

it, warts, sparkles, and all. It's like all the bits and all

the bits and bobs, and you get you get to get your hands dirty,

just like I do, right? Like come along, and we'll see what we

see. And again, that experimenter's mindset of, we

won't know till we show up, and no, now we're here, and oh, hey,

look! Now we've got this to deal with, and what are we gonna do?

How are we gonna problem solve? How are we gonna figure this

out? And I think he does a really good job of bringing us

along for the ride, but also showing us that it's that

problems are normal and problems are okay. Like problem solving

is part of the gig,

which I think is hugely important right now

because so many, especially younger people that I'm

encountering, are afraid to experiment, afraid to like if

you hand them a device and you don't tell them how it works and

it's not immediately obvious, they they're kind of afraid to

touch it. And I'm like, I don't understand where that came from

because I came up in the era where if you wanted to

understand computers, you had to get your hands on the keyboard,

and and so it's a great exercise too. Like I imagine that that

teachers could even use these videos to to help encourage

students to build their problem solving and their creative

thinking skills, because well, and

Lisa Robbin Young: they're skill at asking for help,

right?

Lisa Robbin Young: Right, like that. That to me, as a

recovering, you know, a recovering all-or-nothinger who,

who, yes, who is like, I can't ask for help because that's

that's a sign of weakness. More, you know, to to watch other

people effortlessly say, Hey, I could really use some support on

this. If you're, if you've got skills, I would love to hear

from you. Right, like a lot of times

clear about what he's looking for. Exactly, and

and come there's no

Lisa Robbin Young: right. There's no anxiety around it.

There's none of that. And and for me, you know, learning how

to ask for help was like I didn't have good role models to

ask for help, and so it was like, oh, is that all I have to

say to ask for help? I don't have to come and go. You know, I

was wondering if you could kind of maybe sort of please kind of.

And he's just like, hey, you know, I could use an engineer if

you happen to be one or know one, send him my way. And I'm

like, that's how you ask for help. That was so easy. That

that's all. That's all. Really? Okay. Right. Okay. I'll

I'll

Lisa Robbin Young: pray. This

how how okay I could use

Lisa Robbin Young: yes without without begging without you know

without all of the emotional baggage and again that's that

experimenter's mindset of I don't know what I need I don't

know what I don't know and I can own that I don't know what I

don't know but if you know it I would love to hear from you I

would love to get your perspective on this, and you

know, and and there's no, and I'll try and figure out how to

pay you because nobody works for free, and and don't get me

wrong, I think people should be paid, and that's a different

that's a different conversation than asking for help, right?

Right, because people showed up who didn't work for free to help

with his roof, right? And so that that's and other people at

this like

people have been showing up to help all kinds of

stuff. I I think it's important to raise charisma, like

specifically charisma, because not everybody can just throw out

yeah, sure, I'll show up, and I I think that that's just that's

who he is. That's how he is. That's that's what that's what

he knows how to do, and it's it's one of his gifts. It's not

even a skill set. It's a gift. Now you can build the skill of

drawing people in. Absolutely, that is a buildable skill. But

natural charisma is another whole thing, and the other part

is his enthusiasm. He's just so I and I don't mean this at all

reductively, but he's just so cute. He's like, I'm excited

about this thing. And when was the last time you saw that kind

of enthusiasm and wonder and joy about a project that keeps

getting stuck,

Lisa Robbin Young: right, right, and and in my early days as a

coach for direct sellers, I would say you know, sales is

really just about sharing what you're enthusiastic about. When

you share your enthusiasm, other people get enthused, and they

want to be part of that magical energy, and it makes it easier

for people to say yes to whatever it is that that you

have to offer, and and you can see that

about that. You should totally have a class

about that because so many people are like selling is icky

and weird, and then other people make them feel like selling is

icky and weird. But if you're excited about it, I want to hear

about it. I love the excitement. Like I love to just listen to

people be excited about things. So if you want to be excited

about your thing at me, that sounds great.

Lisa Robbin Young: Yeah, and it hardly ever comes across as a

sales pitch because you're just so excited, and people are like,

"I am so excited for you, and this feels really great. And I

want, I want some of those endorphins, please. And then oh,

you've got this thing you're selling. All right, cool, great.

You know, but you you

really don't have to sit on. I have this thing.

I'm sell like the the current sales cycle stuff of like I have

this thing I'm selling. There's a timed you know you can buy it

within this particular time for less money with more bonuses.

Like no, no, no, no, no. Just be excited. Be excited. Tell me

what you got. Tell me where to find it. Tell me when it's not

going to be available anymore if it's limited. That's it. That's

all I need to know. And so you can spend the entire time just

being your absolutely rock bottom core geeky self, and just

geeking out about your thing. Geek out about your spreadsheet.

Geek out about like, you know, geek out about your your budget

plan. Geek out about your your I don't know your hair stuff or

your clothing or whatever whatever it is. I just want to

see you be geeky. Like reels, Facebook Reels has finally

figured out that if they just feed me recipes and woodworkers

and historic sewists, I will watch reel after reel after

reel, and save a whole bunch of reels. And now I've moved into

so part of the reason that I'm literally sitting in a closet is

because this is the acoustically best space in my house. We just

moved in. We don't have our friends. So you have a

Lisa Robbin Young: new house, right? Yeah.

are the windows in this room don't open yet. They used to,

they probably will again someday. But I've gotten into

watching all these reels of people doing historic window

restoration because I was looking up, you know, how do you

reglaze a window and how do you do this, and suddenly my

Facebook reels, of course, are full of that and and like just

watching someone who really knows their way around a hand

plane and has a really sharp hand plane planing something

until it fits perfectly like that is so satisfying.

Lisa Robbin Young: Yeah, like

you watch those long craftsmanship, right? Yeah,

right,

Lisa Robbin Young: right, right. But it, but the skill that it

takes, right. It's not just watching the curls come off.

It's knowing that that person has done that so many times that

it can fit perfectly. My grandpa was a carpenter, and you know,

the hanging of the picture frame in somebody's office, and you

know tap. Tap tap, and that'll be $50. $50. All you did was

drive a nail. Well, no, I drove a nail, but I knew where to

drive that nail. I knew how hard to hit it. I knew exactly how to

make sure it was level. You know, all of that stuff. And

that's why

I just

Lisa Robbin Young: right. That's right. I did everything right,

and that's why it's costing you this amount of money instead of

just you know 12 cents for a nail or whatever, and that level

of care and commitment, and and I think we see that with Andy

too, right? Like he's he's working on this this racing

truck, and he's like, you know, we're gonna have to rebuild this

because it's not gonna be up to spec. It's not gonna do the job

we want it to do. It's not right. We want it to be better.

We really want this thing to have some kick, and if we want

it to have kick, we got to redo this frame, right? We got to

pull it all out and start over. You know, my mom used to

crochet, and she'd have to pull out three or four rows because

she missed a stitch or something. And I'm like, it's

just one stitch. What do you? No, you drop one stitch, the

whole thing's off. You got to pull it all out, and you got to

got to make it right. I'm like, okay, and I admit

that sometimes when I'm knitting, I fudge it, but I

have to look at it and see if I can live with the fudging, and

that's that humanity piece, right? Like we we want it to be

good, we want it to be as good as it can be, and also sometimes

there's room for humanity. Fitting windows is not really a

room for humanity kind of activity, but but for the most

part, yeah, and that craftsmanship and feeling the

trust when you when you can trust someone to create

something well,

yeah, like

that is that is that is it changes your

emotional relationship to the institution and to the person,

right?

And so when you see someone, you know, on the

software project that I'm working on, there have been

several times where the founder slash lead developer has just

taken an entire thing that he's built and wiped it out and

started over because the way that it was built originally

doesn't work with kind of the best way to build it going

forward, and we talk all the time about we we both know that

a big software company would just kind of you know trowel

over a little bit of of spackle and keep going. Yeah, and it's

good enough.

Lisa Robbin Young: Let's fail forward,

right? But but they are so committed to building a

really strong, good app, and it's one of the things they're

doing that I really admire is they're building in both iOS and

Android simultaneously. They are an iOS person, but they're

building in both at the same time because it's the right

thing to do, and in our business, one of the things I

love about working with them and supporting their project is that

when we're having our business conversations, we're in a in a I

guess it's a meeting like it's just the two of us. But when

we're talking about what should happen next and how it should be

built, we're always like, "Is this the right thing to do? And

if it's not the right thing to do. That's the end of the

conversation. We don't have to have any more justification. We

don't have to have any more thinking about it. If it's not

the right thing to do, we're not going to do it. If if there's

some piece of it that is the right thing to do, we'll figure

out how to hook it and bring it back in some other way. But we

see this in Andy over and over again, where if his values

aren't being met, if if sort of the abstract right thing to do

isn't being met, then he's he's not doing it. It's like, well,

we'll just have to do something else.

Lisa Robbin Young: Yep, yep, yep. And and again, that whole

I'm gonna stay in my lane. This is a great idea and this is a

cool thing. But if it's gonna get done, it's not gonna get

done by me because that's that's beyond my scope of ability or

spoons or whatever it is, right? And and understanding your

limitations as an entrepreneur, I think is is a wise thing. It's

especially when you get in the habit of wearing all the hats,

because you because you have to when you're first starting out,

right? Like that's legit. You have to wear all the hats, but

there comes there comes a time where it's like you can you can

let those hats go. Some people don't want to let go of the hats

because they think it means something about them, and I mean

the only thing that it means is that's not your hat to wear.

It's okay. The only thing that it means is that

you're overworked and you're probably taking three times as

long to do it. Like, have you ever tried to do design work if

you're not a designer, people are always like, "Oh, it'll just

take me a minute. I'll put together a book. Don't call me

out

Lisa Robbin Young: like that. Don't don't call me out like

that. For years, I you know did my own design because that was

what I had to do because that was right. Yeah. And the minute

I was able to be free of that, I was like hallelujah. And I told

this year easily worth of screwing around in Canva

templates or whatever. It's like you took all of that off my

that to better use. And you're worth every penny. Thank you so

much. Right. Right. Um. Get stay in the lane that you're. Meant

to be in and recognize your own limitations, and it's okay to

take those hats off when you can.

Right, right. I mean, I know there's

entrepreneurial software. I don't know if this if it still

exists, but there was for a while an app called 17 Hats, and

it was literally for for entrepreneurs who needed to wear

17 Hats, and also there's so as we're talking about this,

there's a there's a Shel Silverstein poem from one of the

original two poetry collections, either "Light in the Attic" or

"Where the Sidewalk Ends. I don't remember which one, and

it's about two guys and one. And of course, Shel Silverstein

illustrated his own work, and so there's this picture. It's about

this guy. There are two men, and one has one hat, and one has

like 17 hats, like all these hats, and and then the guy with

one hat sells his hat to the guy with all the hats, and the

picture of the guy with all the hats. I'll I'll go find it and

stick it in the in the video, but it's as we're talking about

wearing 17 hats. All I can think about is like the precarity that

he visually managed to get into the stack of hats on this guy's

head, and it's just it feels precarious to try and wear too

many hats, and I think sometimes Andy has gotten to where he's

like, "Oh, this feels really precarious. I probably should

have taken off some of these hats a while ago. Whoops! But

then he just says that. He just says it. He doesn't. He there's

no self-recrimination. There's no blame. There's just like,

whoops, shouldn't have done that. Okay, so we're taking off

these five hats, and if anyone wants to help me take care of

them, that's great. Otherwise, we're just going to have to

shuffle things around so that I'm not wearing those hats

anymore. Right, right. So I think that a big degree. You

know, we we haven't said this explicitly yet, but the theme we

keep coming back to is is knowing yourself, knowing your

community, knowing yourself, knowing your company, knowing

your scope, and then just returning, returning, returning,

returning. You know, you get out and you come back. You get out

and you come back, right? Like this.

Lisa Robbin Young: Right.

We don't have to. We don't have to. We can take

every opportunity to know more about ourselves and share more

about ourselves with our audiences, with our communities,

and the more we know, and the more they know, the more likely

someone in the community is to be like, Andy, you you already

tried doing that, and it really didn't work. Do you want to get

a volunteer to do it this time?

Lisa Robbin Young: Right, right, right, right. Like I can totally

see him deciding. Right.

Yeah, I can see him coming back and he wants to have

like a Mutiny Motors conference or something. He hasn't said

that, but I can totally see him saying that he would he would

want to have a Mutiny Motors conference and being like,

"It'll be fun, it'll be easy, and somebody in his community

being like, "It would be easy for me. How about if I organize

a Muti Motors two-day event in Detroit?

Lisa Robbin Young: Right, right, exactly. It will not be easy for

you, Andy. Like you've never done this before. Have someone

help you, please. Yes, exactly. And also,

your hands are full. We really want you to keep

working on the K track and keep working on, you know, both the

the racing track and the regular track and building the community

and figuring out the marketing and distribution and supply

chains and who's going to bend all this pipe anyway and right

and like those are things you know about so please do that and

and your community loves you and wants to help you so your

community will pick up the rest of it whatever the rest of it

Lisa Robbin Young: is, exactly, exactly.

Final thoughts.

Lisa Robbin Young: We've covered a lot of ground today. We have,

and I I think that you know the knowing yourself piece and

knowing how what you value and what matters to you plays into

the business that you're trying to create. I really feel like

that is a big piece of, you know, that whole. If you don't

remember anything from today's episode, right? Like, I think I

think that's a that's a really important thing for us to keep

in mind. Is like when you start to deviate from what's true for

you, all kinds of ish comes up, and Andy has done a very good

job of staying true and coming back to, you know, that course

correction, coming back to center, coming back to center.

Oh, I went over here. Let me come back. Let me come back. Let

me come back. That's not a job that ever ends. There's always a

distraction pulling you. Oh, some bright shiny object that's

pulling you someplace else. As an entrepreneur, there's a lot

of things to say that you want to say yes to. The goal is

really to keep remembering, but what's true, what what really

matters, what's what's really at the core of this, and keep

coming back to that because that will be the north star that

guides you and. Your project to to success, yeah,

yeah, and I mean to to just circle back a little bit

to your sorry Simon comment earlier, I I think that for a

lot of people values are the why.

Lisa Robbin Young: Sure,

and and when values are your why, then yeah, that's

where you start. Is you know I'm doing this because I want the

world to be a better place, I'm doing this because I think that

we in the business world can do better. I'm doing this because I

want to use my resources and my talents to support people. In my

cross country drive, I have a friend who's a mechanic, and my

in my cross country drive, my car started acting really weird,

and I was able to call up my friend and be like, "Carr's

acting really weird. I'm in Idaho. Like, help! And he was

like, he spent probably several hours paging through the the

parts catalog, trying to figure out if what the mechanic that he

found for me in the little town where I was was telling me the

truth, and he wasn't. He wasn't there. There is no vent valve in

your gas tank.

Lisa Robbin Young: Interesting. As it

turns out, there is a vent valve outside your gas

tank, but you do not need to spend $3,000 to replace your gas

tank to fix the vent bell. Lessons learned. So I think I

think that that ability to know, like I want to use my skills and

my gifts to help people in my community, and that's part of

how he runs his business. That's part of what he does with his

knowledge of cars, and that's part of what I try to do with my

knowledge of businesses and people and organizations and

community, and that's part of what you try to like. I think

that underlying value is also kind of what's driving Andy,

which is what's drawing people to his project. Is like people

are like, finally a company that wants to do something good. Yes,

please sign me up. I want to hear more about that.

Lisa Robbin Young: Yeah, yeah. Like you said, it's the it's the

people's truck.

Right, it's the people's truck. Where can people

find you?

Lisa Robbin Young: I am on several of the social media

outposts as Lisa Robin Young. Robin's got two Bs. If you only

use one, you will not find me, or head over to my website, lisa

robinyoung.com.

And I am at Alessiano Consulting,

alegianoconsulting.com, and also on social media. But really, the

best way to find me is to to message me more directly. I get

kind of overwhelmed by social media, and then I don't see my

messages. But if you if you come looking for me, you'll find me.

I'm also obviously on YouTube, and and in person more and more.

I'm now in Baltimore, so I miss you. I miss you too. I'm sorry

we didn't get to spend more time together when I was in Portland,

but next time you're in Baltimore, let me know.

Lisa Robbin Young: Okay, we'll do it. Yeah.

All right. Thank you so much. Thank you for being

here. We will see you in two weeks. Thank you so much for

listening. This has been Power Pivot Season Three, a podcast

about using the power in your business for good, with host

Leela Sinha of the Intensives Institute and Alejiano

Consulting, with Zim, you heard co-host Lisa Robin Young. The

podcast is produced by Leela Sinha with support by William

Jameson. To support our podcast and other related work, please

consider joining our Patreon at Patreon.com/LeelaS.